Energy From Thorium Discussion Forum

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PostPosted: Mar 24, 2014 10:13 am 
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Eino wrote:
"So they pay for development then we build one for half the cost."

Do you all feel the development of a LFTR is so generic that there will be no patents? IF China develops the LFTR, there will be patents. Will we rob China of its intellectual property rights? China is not known to respect the intellectual property rights of others, but will a higher standard be held by other countries? I could see the Chinese reaching into their deep pocket book. I could see them tying up a new power plant project in the US with their lawyers for ignoring their intellectual property rights. It would be as bad as any nuclear intervenors. It may end up that all LFTRs have to be from Chinese companies at their price.


The idea of China complaining about IP being stolen is laughable. They've found plenty of ways around it, and if this became really important, so would we and the rest of the World.


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PostPosted: Mar 24, 2014 8:01 pm 
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And remember if China attempts to exploit the patents by gouging the West, western courts could just award compulsory licences to western companies at more reasonable rates.
Thats assuming we decide to respect a chinese patent on such an important topic.


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PostPosted: Mar 24, 2014 10:50 pm 
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Hummm... China plays by Big Boy rules with Neodymium regardless of a treaty that says they will export the metal if they have excess amounts. Oh, no excess? Well, no exports, except for already manufactured turbines. Having some IP claims is going to be pretty valuable for the best designs and materials. Funding abhors the threat of lawsuits.


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PostPosted: Mar 25, 2014 5:20 pm 
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Well,.....

There's a very simple reason why they won't have to worry about patent infringement. They will be the sellers of these reactors. They will have done the development and will have working units. If you were going to spend the big bucks for your new Thorium money making reactor, how would you decide whom to procure it from? Let's see. China has a track record with working units. Nobody else does. Do I want to risk my money on Mr. Johnny Come Lately? Nah! We'll go the Wal-Mart route and get the Chinese stuff.

In addition, they still have cheaper labor. This gives them their normal cost advantage.

I think they'll make a lot of money from their wise move to develop the LFTR.


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PostPosted: Mar 25, 2014 6:40 pm 
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There are sometimes curious differences between "what China says" and "what China does".

In the former case, the media recently quoted Li Zhong saying that "This is definitely a race…. China faces fierce competition from overseas and to get there first will not be an easy task" – in reference to “an industrial reactor using thorium molten-salt technology.”

In the latter case - "what China does" - we read in the recently issued (January 2014) official OECD Nuclear Energy Agency for the Generation IV International Forum "GIF roadmap 2014" that:
Quote:
In mid-2012, China, who participated for the first time in a PSSC meeting, declared its willingness to become a permanent observer.

At the 2012 PSSC meeting, China gave an overview of its FHR programme to develop a 2 MWth FHR [pebble bed] test reactor through the Chinese Academy of Sciences at the Shanghai Institute of Applied Physics, with planned initial criticality before the beginning of 2016.
http://www.gen-4.org/gif/upload/docs/application/pdf/2014-03/gif-tru2014.pdf

There is no mention of China's interest in anything other than the salt-cooled pebble-bed FHR.


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PostPosted: Mar 25, 2014 9:34 pm 
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Eino wrote:
Well,.....

There's a very simple reason why they won't have to worry about patent infringement. They will be the sellers of these reactors. They will have done the development and will have working units. If you were going to spend the big bucks for your new Thorium money making reactor, how would you decide whom to procure it from? Let's see. China has a track record with working units. Nobody else does. Do I want to risk my money on Mr. Johnny Come Lately? Nah! We'll go the Wal-Mart route and get the Chinese stuff.

In addition, they still have cheaper labor. This gives them their normal cost advantage.

I think they'll make a lot of money from their wise move to develop the LFTR.
[quote="Eino"]

If China were able to develop a thorium molten salt reactor, it would be infinitely more important to China herself than any issue of trade.

Old habits die hard, but I think it is becoming more apparent to China that running a huge trade surplus forever has no purpose. They have an awful lot of dollars now. What can they do with them? Buy something from America (or trade them to someone who can also do nothing but buy something from America). China needed to import things and building up a dollar reserve was important to protect the value of their currency. But, that day is long past. Exporting to the most competitive market in the World, the United States, is also good for improving the quality of your manufacturing (think about S. Korea's second try with the Hyundai car). That may still have some value, but eventually they will start buying more products from other countries. They are artificially depressing the standard of living in their country by running these surpluses. They are making things of real value and trading them for numbers in the Federal Reserve Bank of the United States (until they spend the money and turn it back into something of value).

They may want to export nuclear reactors. They can earn some more foreign currency, and more importantly gain some political influence by that route, but it is much more important for them to build reactors ... in China. I don't think people who haven't been there lately appreciate just how bad the air is. And, I also think the Chinese are sane, and view climate change with some alarm.

You're right they can make money by selling reactors without really worrying about patents. It's like the trade secret route. You get to the market first, and start selling. By the time people copy what you are doing, you've moved on to something better. Probably hard to keep 'secrets' in something like this, but people would not be able to duplicate what you are doing overnight.

And, I think the Chinese might bitch in public, but in private I think they would also be laughing at the idea that it is so unfair for people to steal their technology. In fact, they would probably view it as the clear sign that they had really joined the big boys, because now people were copying them.


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PostPosted: Mar 26, 2014 1:15 pm 
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I just want to commend SteveK9 for hitting the nail on the head, at least as far as the economics go. Domestic demand is a lot more important than trade. If you still wanted to frame this in competitive terms, then the more correct way would be "China is in a race to surpass American per capita living standards."


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PostPosted: Jan 20, 2015 12:49 pm 
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How will this affect development ?

Quote:
Mianheng resigned from his position as president at China’s top scientific research institute, the Chinese Academy of Science’s Shanghai branch, “Due to reasons of age,” the academy announced on Jan. 8. However, at 64 years old, Jiang Mianheng, (born in April 1951), is still a year younger than the age at which officials normally retire, 65.


Jiang Zemin’s Son Suspected of Buying Support of Ally of Jiang Zemin’s Successor
By Lu Chen, Epoch Times | January 19, 2015


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PostPosted: Jan 20, 2015 9:20 pm 
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jaro wrote:
How will this affect development ?

Quote:
Mianheng resigned from his position as president at China’s top scientific research institute, the Chinese Academy of Science’s Shanghai branch, “Due to reasons of age,” the academy announced on Jan. 8. However, at 64 years old, Jiang Mianheng, (born in April 1951), is still a year younger than the age at which officials normally retire, 65.


Jiang Zemin’s Son Suspected of Buying Support of Ally of Jiang Zemin’s Successor
By Lu Chen, Epoch Times | January 19, 2015


See my posts and replies in this thread

viewtopic.php?f=12&t=4512

This is the classic route to getting purged in Xi's China.


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PostPosted: Jun 11, 2016 8:33 pm 
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Son of Former Chinese Leader Jiang Zemin Said to Be Under House Arrest

Quote:
Jiang Mianheng, the elder son of former Chinese Communist Party chief Jiang Zemin, is presently under house arrest, according to a source close to the Party disciplinary inspection branch in Shanghai.

The source told the Chinese language edition of Epoch Times that Jiang is being held under house arrest in a secret location on the outskirts of Shanghai. He is only allowed outside the residence for fresh air, the source said; the source said he had personally seen Jiang at the location, using an “observation device” to confirm a tip-off.


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PostPosted: Jun 17, 2016 1:50 am 
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He could just be valuable (intellectual) property in safe custody!


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PostPosted: Jun 17, 2016 3:51 am 
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So, is there another MSR patron in china to take over, or will MSR work be on the back burner for a while there?

In some ways I am somewhat surprised one of their billionaires with interests in energy technology hasn't taken up the mantle, investing in domestic energy startups that aren't involved in wind and solar...


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PostPosted: Jun 18, 2016 3:30 pm 
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Kirk Sorensen wrote:
Son of Former Chinese Leader Jiang Zemin Said to Be Under House Arrest


Given the secrecy of what happens within China I have to wonder about the accuracy about any news from there, this is especially true for any news of a political nature. Jiang Zemin may in fact be under house arrest but the reasons for this arrest may be suspect.

In short, I don't know what to think about this development.

_________________
Disclaimer: I am an engineer but not a nuclear engineer, mechanical engineer, chemical engineer, or industrial engineer. My education included electrical, computer, and software engineering.


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PostPosted: Oct 22, 2016 12:54 pm 
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Update from SINAP presentation at ORNL GAIN conference, Oct.2016


Attachments:
SINAP-ORNL-GAIN_Oct-2016.jpg
SINAP-ORNL-GAIN_Oct-2016.jpg [ 261.39 KiB | Viewed 3429 times ]
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PostPosted: Oct 22, 2016 1:00 pm 
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Still think the whole Chinese MSR effort was a big internet lie, Jaro? Or have you come around to the admission that the program has actually existed these last five years?


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