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PostPosted: Apr 03, 2015 1:59 pm 
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I just learned that the Delft University of Technology in the Netherlands is organizing a symposium on Thorium Molten Salt Reactors on April 17, with some interesting speakers attending (Kirk Sorensen, David LeBlanc, Leslie Dewan):

http://www.janleenkloosterman.nl/symposium.php

The Delft University of Technology will also be leading the EU-funded SAMOFAR research program, the successor to the EVOL/MSFR program.


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PostPosted: Apr 17, 2015 7:26 am 
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Kloosterman

fuel composition of LWR (slide)--how to improve LWR
LWR diagram of Moderator and fission chain reaction (slide) nuclear waste in form of fission products
Radiotoxicity LWR (slide) two components: fission products and actinides (radioactive for very long time)
Imagine a reator with no surplus fuel inthe core, no decay heat removal issue, no high pr essure coolant, no volatile fission product

MSR comes close!
Reactor design (slide) fuel salt (Flibe), secondary circuit; two loops--one to continuously clean salt, can dump fluids into tank underneath reactor core, use of freeze plug; essential aspect fuel=coolant

Moleten Salt Reactor Experiment 1965-1969 (slide) picture of graphite core and reactor vessel w/ pump, heat exchanger, etc.
MSRE: zerio power pump startup (slide) return of precursors power.time/flow rate'MSRE: Pump start up (slide) precursor concentration
MR: Pump coast-down at full power (slide) Power/time chart and temp/time chart
Breeding with thorium (slide) U-233 most fissile isotope we know
Radiottoxicity thorium-MRS NO actinides in thorium-MR only have fission products remaining
Nuclides (slide) vertical axis-protons, horizonatal-neutrons five or six neutron steps to obtain plutonium
GEN_IV:MS Fast Reactor (slide)
Working paramenters; high temp, low pressure, circulation time, online procession, three fuel salt loops
Summary (slide) : fuel salt at ambient pressure, fuel salt is a fluid, fuel salt cleaning, flexible fuel cycle
conclusion: philosophy, let the fule expand and flow
thorium in a msr does not produce long-lived nuclear waste, th in a msr fits n a sustainble energy supplyFssion
audience questions: If MSR so great, why don't we have one today? and Ellaborate on the storage of the fluid? tank under core, no fission chain reaction occuring, salt being slightly cooled


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PostPosted: Apr 17, 2015 7:28 am 
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Professor Jilt sietsma
Dept. Materials Science and Engineering
Delft University of Technology
(slide) Materials issues in Th Moten Salt reactors: focus on HASTELLOY N, ally
(slide) Can materials make the tH-MrS possible? Materials requirements: strength, formability, weldability, 30-50 years life time
Materials conditions: radiation, high temp, corrosive environment
(slide) The crystalline structure of metals
(slide) Metal in a nuclear reactor
nuclear collions
(slide) impact of radiation: atomic displacements
(slide) Recombination, but also excess vanancies and interstitials: clustering of defects and alloying elemets, dislocation loops, and precipitation
(slife) Radiation damage after gradually increasing dose "black dots", atomic clusters, dislocation loops, precipitates
(slide) High temperature 700-750 degrees C, 30-50 years
Hastelloy N at 8580 degrees Celsius
cracks due to tellurium, diffusion distance during random-walk atomic motion, NB seems to help, but the mechanism is not known, Te-penetration in Ha-N aincreases with time--enhanced diffusion
(slide) Corrosion resistance grain boundary corrosion enchanced by cr-depletion
(slidle) Thermodynamic stability of flurides: Li, Na, K, Be fuorides ost stable; cr-fluoride most stable among the alloying elements
(slide) Corrosion rate for Hastelloy C-276 i hloride salt at 500 degrees C

Questions: John Lorry: Reactor lifetime? Why do we need to design reactors that last so long? A: safety q: coating? more flexibility
Kirk Sorensen: temp to below 700 C, ions not mobile, corrosion limited to thin layer, ample evidence, A: highest possible for experiment, lower below 700, no physical reason that chromium will not do something below a certain temp
Q: impact resistance? A: diffusion plays a role


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PostPosted: Apr 17, 2015 7:29 am 
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Professor Konings
Challenges in Molten salt Fuel Chemistry
fuel is not contained in closed loop, want to ontrol chem of fuel, can improve safety and performents
(slide) Requiremennts for solvents for the MSR
wide range of solubility for actinides, thermodynamically stable up to high temperatures, stable to radiation, low vapor pressure, compatible with nickelbaased structural materials, compatible with the clean-up tech
(slide) solven/fuels for MSR sodium floride, zirconium floride
(Slide) Structure of a molten fluoride salt
LiF is a strongly ionic liquid; Befx is apolymeric liquid; ThF4 is a molecular liquid
(slide) Structure and properties of the salt
(slide) Molten fluoride salt vs solid oxide fuel
(slide) Chemical potential of fluorine: is the equilibrium fluroine pressure of a reduction/oxidation reaction, fission increases the fluorine potention(the average valence of the fission products is lower than 4+ of uranium
(slide) Fluorine potential and electropotential
(slide) Fuel salt clean-upremove metal particles, remove some of the dissolves fission product such as lanthanides How? uranium fluorination, fission gases-use helium bubbling have liquid/liquid extraction for lanthanides these are chem processes
(slide) Fuel salt clean-up: Protactinium
(slide) Challenges
optimise composition with respect to safety margins andproperties: oxygen emasurement and c ontrol, redox meansrement and control
-demonstration of fuel fabrication and purification techniques
-understanding of thefission product chemistry and in particular demonstrate the behaviour
(slide) Salient irradiation experiemnt in HFR-Petten
Goal: Fission product behaviour in salt, graphite and metallic specimens (slide) ITU molten salt Centre of Excellence
Q: Q:John Lorry: fuel salt is not in static tubes, why not? A: lose the advantage of control Joh: Why weld it tight? A: then it is perfectly okay
q: does reactor create sonic waves? A: I cannot answer. If there wouold be, an influence on bubbles.


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PostPosted: Apr 17, 2015 7:29 am 
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http://flibe-energy.com/pdf/FlibeEnergy ... UDelft.pdf

Kirk Sorensen
Q: How do we educate people? (member of Parliament) Advantages now, internet, high-quality videos. Explaining to people the presence of radioactive materials.
Q: Why isn't capital flowing into these efforts?
A: Improvements in licensing regimes. Speaking to NRC . . . fine steps if I was a pressurized LWR. to have a regulatory approach that recognizes this. Regulatory reform required to free of markets.
Q: only phsicist in senate of Dutch. Get active in politics. Clapping!
A: more teachers, etc. pursued politics.
Q: Are the construction costs of LFTR higher or lower than traditional reactors?
A: lower because of elimination of accident scenarios. Regulation a part of cost. Are we are free societies using our capital properly and are nuclear regulation proceeding as they should? co-products take down cost, desalinating water, takes down price for consumer, would happen over time.


Last edited by quincykaye on Apr 17, 2015 7:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Apr 17, 2015 7:30 am 
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David LeBlanc

Terrestrial Energy
philosophy of their reactor
(slide) Liquid fuel is key
(slide) Advantages of Molten Salt Reactors
Safety,reduced capital cost, long lived waste issues, resource sustainabiity and low fuel cycle cost
(slide) U.S. Historic Timeline


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PostPosted: Apr 17, 2015 9:07 am 
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quincykaye wrote:
David LeBlanc


Hi qiuncykaye

Did David bring up the two different ways to fuel his reactor? One way was to use thorium and 19.9% 235U.

Thanks
Wilson


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PostPosted: Apr 17, 2015 9:23 am 
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Rory O'Sullivan
Energy Process Developments
Feasibility Study for the Development of a Pilot Scale MSR in the UK
Feasibility study
(slide) Objectives: To validate and assess alternative MSR configurations, etc.
paramenters of study, The feasibility study team
(slide) rear view of MSRE
Regulatory Assessment (slide) existing site license needed
(slide) Seaborg technologies/Copenhagen
Atomics Waste Burner, Denmark
(slide) thorCon, USA come from shipping industry, single fluid, denatured uranium and thorium
(slide) stable Salt Reactor, Moltex energy, UK static field, boiler tube around perimeter
(slide) Flibe Energy, UsA; Terrestrial E nergy, Canada; Transatomic Power, SA
Go Flibe!

(slide) Assessment Process: development of a pilot scale demonstration reactor only
(slide) MSR Activity--Not Assessed
Fuji MSR, T horenco, MOSART, Dual Fluid Reactor
(slide) Chinese TMSR Program: largest today, 600 staff, solid and luquid fuel prototype program, disturbing picture of APEC Blue Beijiing during APEC week (blue sky, clear image of architecture) and Beijing, before of after APEC week (gray, architecture barely visible)
(slide) TMSR timeline Research-2015, Demonstration-2025, Commercialization--2035
(slide) TMSR Concept: control arrangement altered to match FHR, graphite moderator and reflector, fliBe salt, construction materials are Hastelloy N and GH3535, LEU first, Th rials later on
(slide) TMSR activity Today: At Sinap facility (passive cooling demonstrationfacility, several salt loops, tritium separation, specific TMSR supercomputer, radioactive materialhandling facility) and other facilities
(slide) Obstacles--Public Opinion and Funding
(slide) UK OPinion Poll: show information needed, a demonstration reactor needed
Q: about China


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PostPosted: Apr 17, 2015 9:24 am 
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Leslie Dewan
TransAtomic Power
happy about interest in MSRs, encouraging start-ups
Transatomic's flavor of MSR, consuming existing stockpiles of nuclear fuel
(slide) Atoms For Peace picture
(slide) Walt Disney Our friend the Atom
(slide) image of teapot boiling
(slide) tapping into latent enthusiasm about nucleary energy, a reactor with minal nuclear waste, consuming existing piles of nuclear waste
(slide) how do you solve problem? going back to older technolgies and adapt it to something entirely new
(slide) MSRs, looked at six types of Gen IV reactors; looking for a low-pressure system, high burnup, and thermal spectrium. Obvious solution was some type of MSR
(slide) existence proof of MSR
(slide) commercialize MSR, how to maintain safety benefits, etc.
(slide) changes from 1960s design--graphite to Zirconium hydride
and salt in the 1960s design was FLiBe and Uf4 to now LiF and UF4
Fuel Enrichment in the 1960s design 33%-93% to Transatomic's 1.8 percnt spent fuel and Power density was 4 to their design 86
(slide) chart y-axis Neutron spectrum, x-asix Energy (MeV) more fast neutrons fissioning, more thermal neutrons fissioning
(slide) a conventional reactor only uses $% of the pellet's potential energy
(slidle) annual long-lived waste: conventional reactor 20,000 KBG vs. 20 KG (Transatomic)
(slide) today we can turn 270,000 metric tons of waste into 72 years of power for the entire planet!
(slide) Actinide Mass Percentages x-axis Percentage of Total actindide Mass, x-axis Time, years Isotopic mass percentages as a function of time. Uranium-238 is not included inthis figure, as it is greater 95% of the mass of the fuel most of the time
(slide) Key Personnel
Leslie dewan, Mark Massie, ray Roothrock, Russ Wilcox
(slidle) Technical Advisory Board, Dr Todd Allen, Dr. Michael Corradini, Dr. Regis Matzie, Prof. Ben Forget, etc.

(slide) raised 6 million thus far, mainbacker Founder's Fund, finished preliminary designed (image), looking at corrosion effects on design, MIT, pairing to experiment, team of 5 at MIT, just moved into a bigger office, looking for neutronics employees, goal to break ground by 2020
NRC still "gold standard" but needs a clearer path for regulation, been to D.C. alot lately, testified before Congress, uncertain on path foward in U.S., considering Canadian path as well
(slide) Atoms for Peace, resurgence about excitement about nuclear engineering, large market for potential solutions
Q:assume you have a traditional reactor, produces waste for your MSR, how big etc.?
A: 1 to 40 ratio, not a fast way to get rid of waste (72 years)
Q: nuclear physics of reactor?
A: which pieces?
Q: nuclear criticality
A: MSRs have strong feedback systems, channels for control rods to aid in start-up and shutdown
Q: describe LWR physics model and yours?
A: modelling MSRs require re-thinking assumptions about LWRs, salt flowing outside of core in MSRs
Q: waste management?
A: waste in US still in spent fuels would be able to be used in this
Q: scientific correctness? down to 20 KG of waste
A: goes back to slide, 20 kg of actinides, not fission products; three main streams of fission products, explains fission product removal
Q: isn't plutonium removed from the fuel salt by the liquid metal extraction?
A: first step is fluorination, does neptunium fluorinate?


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PostPosted: Apr 17, 2015 9:24 am 
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Jorritt
(slide) If thorium is the answer, then why aren't we developing it? Long time to market
(slide) Barriers to funding--limited, important of communicating developments
(distracted for a few slides) (slide) Why should we develop thorium? export of knowledge, economic opportunities
(slide) map of world with x all overs countries with significant future energy needs (many parts of Africa, south America, Asia)
(no slide) essential nature of energy needs
(slide) from illusion to reality: build thorium awareness, public and political acceptance, part of the energy mix, institutionalise thorium


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PostPosted: Apr 17, 2015 9:25 am 
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Kloosterman wrap-up
Th abundantly present
achievements by start-ups, achievements in Europe--SAMOFAR: prove the safety concept of the MSFR, breakthrough in nuclear safety and sustainability
(slide) SAMOFAR Experimental: salt conditions at walls of piping and freeze plug, optimal geometry of the freeze plus, natural circulation dynamics of salt, demonstrate extraction processes afety assessment: measuring safety related data of salts, new integral safety approach, software simulator (start-up, load-following, transient scenarios (multi-physics, uncertainty,), and safety of chemical processes
(slide) research needed three amin areas control of salt chemistry, optimize physical and chem properties of the salts, and modelling and demonstration of chemical clean-up
-Development of durble structural materials, coating, and moderator maaterials
-Numerical modelling and experimental validation for licensing
(slide) What should we do?
-Join forces and expertise
-Budge for research on chem, materials, licensing; education of young engineers and scientists
-Budget for design, construction and operaation of a demonstration reactor; conceptual design of first power reactor
(slide) Th MSRs are safe and sustainable, etc.


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PostPosted: Apr 18, 2015 2:59 pm 
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It was a very interesting symposium yesterday and it was nice to see Kirk and others who made the long trip from North America and who have an interesting story to tell, such as David LeBlanc and Leslie Dewan, for real. The attendance was beyond my expectations with people from all walks of life attending: politicians, engineers, students and ordinary citizens.

During the lunch I had an interesting conversation with a member of the Dutch senate, who is also a retired professor of physics. He lamented the lack of background knowledge of his peers in the senate on nuclear matters in particular and on scientific matters in general. This leads to a lot of bad policy making. In the coming years, the Dutch government is going spend 18 billion Euros on subsidies for wind turbines, which will primarily be built at sea. Contrast this with the paltry sum that the Delft University of Technology and its European partners are receiving for continuing the research on molten salt reactors (MSFR-SAMOFAR Project, previously the EVOL Project), which is approximately 3 million Euros, spread out over a couple of years.

The slides of the presentations will be made available in the next week by the Delft University of Technology.


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PostPosted: Apr 21, 2015 7:25 pm 
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Check out these links for the files and for the video of the conference:

http://www.janleenkloosterman.nl/symposium.php
https://collegerama.tudelft.nl/Mediasit ... b63b674a1d


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PostPosted: May 19, 2015 4:35 am 
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rc1111 wrote:
Check out these links for the files and for the video of the conference:

http://www.janleenkloosterman.nl/symposium.php
https://collegerama.tudelft.nl/Mediasit ... b63b674a1d


Check out also this, a website dedicated to the symposium in Delft:

http://www.thmsr.nl


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PostPosted: May 25, 2015 2:15 pm 
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The use of Thorium as nuclear fuel is promoted since the 60ies by various sources.

The serious reason that it is not used till today is that 232U (created from 233U by n->2n reaction) emits a very hard and difficult to protect Gamma radiation during decay. Handling and reprocessing of used fuel is by far more difficult than uranium - plutonium fuel and not possible in the existing plants.

In Germany we had 2 HTR pebble bed reactors originally designed for the use of thorium - uranium fuel. They were run with uranium - plutonium fuel. They did ask for example my father (regulatory authority) to permit the reprocessing of thorium - uranium fuel in the reprocessing pilot plant in Karlsruhe. He had to deny as this plant was equipped with glove boxes suitable for uranium - plutonium fuel with its soft gamma Radiation Thorium - uranium fuel requires remote controlled processes.

As uranium - plutonium fuel works well the costs for uranium are low there is actually no benefit in using Thorium - uranium fuel. This might change in the following decades when a generation of very intelligent radiation resistant robots will take over the handling of used fuel, repair and maintenance work in nuclear facilities.


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