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PostPosted: Feb 02, 2011 11:52 am 
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We need a bottom-up approach to deal with public misconceptions like that. When people are educated on basic energy analys & nuclear fission basics, most will stop hating nuclear power and will realise wind and solar aren't going to cut it for Germany. Then they will be much more supportive and the fearmongering stranglehold of eco-luddite groups like GreenPeace will be shattered.


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PostPosted: Feb 07, 2011 5:54 pm 
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Location: Germany
German youtube discussion (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7Tbw_VnCrA) to a anti-nuclear PR movie from greenpeace
I'm open for advices how i should continue ;)

Discussion translated with Google Translator- if you have translation specific questions just ask.
Tobias Anhalt

Quote:
Greeny:
In Chernobyl may be. but we can guarantee that staff today completely flawlessly work? It was "almost disaster" ? in Krümmel by misleading communication of mitarbeiter.und for the info. The power plants today were also already long not more außreichend gewarted because they believed, is that the Atomic atomausstiegsgesetz[nuclear disposal law] soon! And nebensächlichist[nevertheless] to claim the nuclear waste is just stupid! : this garbage verstralt[radiate] thousands of years unsen[our] planet!

I:
["almost disaster" in Krümmel was also ambiguous communication of staff]
That did not exist. Please put your information sources open.
[The power plants today were also already long nicht? more außreichend gewarted because it believed that the nuclear atomausstiegsgesetz soon done!]
This is thus incorrect, to operate of a nuclear power plant's is legally required to keep the security measures on the newest State.
[this garbage verstralt thousands of years unsen planet!]
So incorrectly. We can not radiate our planet.
But I understand your concerns to shoot the so-called "nuclear waste" in the Sun to isolate him from our biosphere an option will be was? with the distribution of "nuclear waste" to a vast area would result never statistically one accident (occurred 12 rocket at j.).
To isolate the "nuclear waste" in old mines I do not support also because we can not as far as think ahead! (there are no MILLIONEN-which we have to wait, but only ~ 100000). But we can also not guarantee.
The problem of so-called "nuclear waste" (in scientific circles we tend to less it to name a few) because many of us have recognized das? he has a value for the broken. (Radio medicine, rare earth,...)
Spent nuclear fuel should be burnt think of many renowned experts and me (I go in to not continue because I already 3 comments benötigt?)
As hopefully recognize most of those who have read this it takes a few moments to tell someone why nuclear energy is essential, clean and safe but a "nuclear power opponents" needs only a fraction of a second to "Chernobyl" fear and to spread terror.

Politician:
Let's assume for a moment that nuclear power is "essential, clean and safe". There is still the problem of disposal which thou hast given no answer also (at least yet). You should recognize that as a camp society encounters opposition - no matter where to set it up within Germany. Nuclear energy is not just about des? technically feasible, but also the social acceptance.

I:
Nuclear energy is indispensable clean and safe IN comparison (see France, see deepwater horizon).
As already written I see the solution in der? final disposal as politically is because in my view for Germany ever arising (see "Yucca Mountain" in the USA). The power plants that produce energy based on U-235 are yellow from the egg.
Burnt fuel load from German reactors can be reused to reduce the incurred amount and create (see France Canada and CANDU) energy in heavy water reactors. Many GEN IV reactor designs such as LFTR, ? liquid fluoride thorium reactor can waste the own fuel cycle to involve in to reduce the quantity and the half-life by more than 99%. After 10 years the radiation burden is that of by LFTR produced 'waste' as low to be accruing often expensive and rare fission products
How can resell Xenon and many rare earth elements. 300 Years is considered waste as safe. This is a Zeitraum? that people can work, we can plan ahead not hundreds of thousands of years.
Nuclear energy is the energy source of the future (see LFTR).
If you have questions you can kontaktieren-also pleased me so I must squeeze scientific explanations that nobody reads anyway in 500 characters.
Tobias Anhalt

...


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PostPosted: Feb 15, 2011 10:26 pm 
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Another domino falling. Spain abandons nuclear phaseout. Thanks to Nuclear Australia and NEI for reporting this.


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PostPosted: Mar 15, 2011 11:36 am 
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Political fallout spreading far wider than any real damage (so far)

Germany orders immediate shutdown of 7 oldest nuclear plants (BBC)

And a new opinion from Der Spiegel.

Probably a good time to buy stock in coal mines :-(


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PostPosted: Mar 15, 2011 12:10 pm 
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Luke, I wouldn't be too sure about it. This appears to be politics; assure to make the 'right' - actually popular - decision but don't commit fully yet, wait till the situation cools down a bit (pardon the pun) and then decide that the plants will be needed but will, of course, incorporate the lessons learned from Japan when necessary.

Unlike most activists, governments have to deal with this little thing called reality. They can't shut down and meet climate targets, and they won't.


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PostPosted: Mar 15, 2011 12:16 pm 
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Luke wrote:
Political fallout spreading far wider than any real damage (so far)

Germany orders immediate shutdown of 7 oldest nuclear plants (BBC)

And a new opinion from Der Spiegel.

Probably a good time to buy stock in coal mines :-(


I'm thankful for the Germans so that I can feel better that the US doesn't have the dumbest nuclear policy in the world.


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PostPosted: Mar 15, 2011 12:22 pm 
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Kirk Sorensen wrote:
Luke wrote:
Political fallout spreading far wider than any real damage (so far)

Germany orders immediate shutdown of 7 oldest nuclear plants (BBC)

And a new opinion from Der Spiegel.

Probably a good time to buy stock in coal mines :-(


I'm thankful for the Germans so that I can feel better that the US doesn't have the dumbest nuclear policy in the world.


Well and we in germany have to live with it :-(


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PostPosted: Mar 15, 2011 12:34 pm 
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Luke wrote:
Political fallout spreading far wider than any real damage (so far)

Germany orders immediate shutdown of 7 oldest nuclear plants (BBC)

And a new opinion from Der Spiegel.

Probably a good time to buy stock in coal mines :-(


But where will the money now come from to subsidize renewables? Part of the extortion to renew licenses was feeding more money into renewables. This will be entertaining...


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PostPosted: Mar 15, 2011 12:50 pm 
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Location: Germany
I think we will mine more brown coal and burn it as this is the only fuel we have here.

This is making me sad.


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PostPosted: Mar 15, 2011 12:53 pm 
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Or we import more nuclear energy from France.


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PostPosted: Mar 15, 2011 6:14 pm 
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I think import will be very likely. That has been California's answer for decades.


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PostPosted: Mar 28, 2011 7:20 pm 
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According to this, Germany will eliminate nuclear power in favour of renewables:

http://washingtonexaminer.com/news/world/2011/03/germany-set-abandon-nuclear-power-good

With 20-25% of their power coming from nukes, I wonder exactly what they plan to build? And how they plan to create baseload power from intermittent sources? Are they going to be happy continuing to use coal for 40% of their power while the nukes are being replaced (instead of using the new renewable power to shut down coal first)? How are they ever going to replace the 40% from coal (total of 65% more power from renewables, on top of 15% today)? That's 80% of their grid on renewables. If it's wind at 25% capacity, they'll have to build 4x as much nameplate capacity and solve the power storage problem, at a minimum to carry (say) 50% of the grid for 12 hours, and probably a lot more. Is there some new power storage technology I'm not aware of that's going to solve this problem?

Re. importing nuclear energy from France, maybe. Or perhaps importing natural gas from Eastern Europe - just "temporarily', of course.


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PostPosted: Mar 28, 2011 10:42 pm 
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Location: Knoxville, TN
dmcmahon wrote:
Germany will eliminate nuclear power in favour of renewables.


Last time they claimed this, the result was a suggestion to build 26 new coal plants. After postponing the nuclear phase-out, they are 'only' building ~8 new coal burning plants.

https://windfarms.wordpress.com/2008/03 ... n-germany/
http://www.spiegel.de/international/ger ... 86,00.html

Back to coal and greenwashing again. Most poeple forgot, it was 3 years ago anyway.


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PostPosted: Mar 29, 2011 3:06 am 
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Germany has a wind and solar program with a price tag over 100 billion USD. The reality for Germany's electricity supply is that it uses more fossil fuels now than 40 years ago. It was just, more fossil fuel and a little geothermal/solar/wind as icing on a dirty fossil fuel cake. Then they added some waste combustion to energy conversion which, from professional experience, is not particularly clean (pardon the pun). If it weren't for nuclear power Germany would have built many more coal plants. Building 1 GWe coal plant is a 40+ year commitment to a cumulative 400,000,000 tons CO2 and 10,000,000 tons of heavy metal contaminated toxic ash that has to be kept out of the environment until Judgement Day. We're not yet talking about the sulphur, NOx, CO, coal mining deaths and lung cancers (using the cleanest coal you get 10-20 premature deaths due to lung cancer per 1 GWe plant per year).

Image


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PostPosted: Mar 29, 2011 11:09 am 
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I've seen that graph. To be fair, it doesn't look that bad. They've held their fossil electricity at approximately the same level for almost 40 years, and all the growth in demand has been met by nukes and renewables, with renewables making up almost all of the increase in the past 10 years. That's impressive IMO. But looking at the chart, it's hard to see how the fossil number will go down over the next 40 years, even if renewables can be expanded to replace the nukes, which seems doubtful unless they've got some way to make them produce baseload. Perhaps their plan is to throw a lot of intermittent capacity onto the grid and sell excess power cheaply to neighbors, then buy reliable power at high cost from those same neighbors? Either way it seems like the fossil component isn't going to go away.


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