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 Post subject: GE doing sCO2 turbine PR
PostPosted: Apr 11, 2016 9:43 pm 
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Apparently there's a PR puff piece floating around regarding GE prototyping a 10MW supercritical CO2 turbine (ongoing NETL/ARPA-E/Sandia work?, sourced from MIT technology review and GE Reports.


https://www.technologyreview.com/s/601218/desk-size-turbine-could-power-a-town/

http://www.gereports.com/this-scientists-got-the-power-plant-in-his-hands/


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PostPosted: Apr 12, 2016 8:24 pm 
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Durham’s NET Power breaks ground on zero-emissions plant

NET Power Breaks Ground on Demonstration Plant for World’s First Emissions-Free, Low-Cost Fossil Fuel Power Technology

Toshiba has almost completed detailed design in preparation for a turbine that will use carbon dioxide as the working fluid.

Toshiba, NET Power, CB&I, Exelon and 8 Rivers Capital are working together to develop and commercialize the application of supercritical carbon dioxide power cycle technology for efficient emissions-free electric power generation.

They have completed major agreements to build a 25MWe gross electric (50MWt) demonstration plant in the U.S. for test and evaluation that will provide the basis for the design and construction of a full-scale 295MWe commercial plant.

- Toshiba is to provide a first-of-a-kind turbine that will utilize supercritical CO2 as a working fluid to produce low-cost electricity while eliminating NOx, CO2 and other pollutants.

- CB&I to provide engineering, procurement and construction services including pre-FEED (front-end engineering design) and FEED studies for the demo plant and pre-FEED study of a commercial 500MWt power plant.

- Exelon, one of the leading competitive energy providers in the US, will be responsible for siting, permitting and commissioning the demo plant facility.

- NET Power will be responsible for project management, overall system engineering and integration, coordination between the partners.

- 8 Rivers Capital , inventor of the supercritical CO2 cycle, will provide ongoing engineering and technology development services.

The timetable calls for Toshiba to begin delivery of key equipment to the demo plant site in August 2016. The completed plant is expected to enter the commissioning stage before the end of 2016.

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PostPosted: Apr 13, 2016 11:17 am 
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Regarding the GE S-CO2 design - I'm somewhat surprised by the model shown, I thought/pictured the blades to be more like a ship's propeller than what I observe from the photo. Although that could be my fault; perhaps the GE turbine is designed for a different flow, pressure, and temperature range(s)??


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PostPosted: Apr 13, 2016 11:22 am 
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And regarding the Net Power design - there is not much discussion of the materials challenge of a steam + CO2 mix impacting the blades. Not only would the steam 'scour' the turbine material(s), would there not be some amount of carbonic acid?


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PostPosted: Apr 13, 2016 3:05 pm 
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Jim L. wrote:
Net Power design - there is not much discussion of the materials challenge of a steam + CO2 mix impacting the blades. Not only would the steam 'scour' the turbine material(s), would there not be some amount of carbonic acid?
Image

Maybe Toshiba's blade material can't be scoured? Looks like there's a water separator.

I shared Kirk's excitement when I first viewed his presentations of sCO2 gas turbines being smaller and more efficient. Then I saw Asteroza post the GE sCO2 turbine PR on the 11th. If people believe carbon capture is prudent (I do) and efficiency improvements as well, then I believe this technology deserves elevated priority.

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PostPosted: Apr 14, 2016 8:15 am 
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The water separator is downstream from the turbine, so the water formed in the combustor would be in the stream going through the turbine. Perhaps the water will be a very dry steam, I know that wet steam is a major concern for Rankine cycle turbines, such that steam dryer(s) are used.


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PostPosted: Apr 14, 2016 1:07 pm 
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Jim, can you get technical specs on the Toshiba design?

NET Power intends to have this unit running in March 2017. What is pertinent to Flibe Energy's LFTR is a proven sCO2 PCS. What power plant on planet earth has an sCO2 gas turbine running?

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PostPosted: Apr 14, 2016 8:23 pm 
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Too bad Dresser Rand/Ramgen's work isn't available yet. Having a more compact compressor cuts costs. Actually, I would be curious what a Ramgen style full supersonic expander turbine for pure sCO2 ops would be like. Probably even more compact, but a little scary to have expansion cause your working fluid to turn into a solid...


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PostPosted: Apr 15, 2016 8:07 am 
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@Tim,
I just viewed the info from your postings.


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PostPosted: Apr 15, 2016 9:53 am 
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Well, Jim?

We're here because we believe in Kirk Sorensen's Flibe Energy, the only company that is building for the first time a commercial MSR powered by thorium with a chemical processor that has the side benefit of turning FPs into commodities and vital medical isotopes with a minimized amount of radio waste that is very short-lived next to the relatively much larger amounts of installed LWR long-lived high-level SNF.

None of the other advanced nuclear reactor designs include the online chemical processing. The Flibe LFTR does not avoid the responsibility of dealing with the fission products up front. On top of that, Kirk is bravely meeting Uncle Sam's wise requirements instead of trying to run and hide overseas and pretend like the problem will go away. I find that patriotic. I love our country. I believe in the US Constitution. I was ready to die for it until the army doctor found me non-worldwide deployable. Kirk's LFTR will be made in the USA! Hoo rah!

ThorCon moves it's pots to a processing facility and then what? Hire Flibe to process?

ThorCon doesn't care about the better power conversion system and says go with steam. Forget that. sCO2 technology needs to be advanced right away and ThorCon should get on board with that effort.

That's why I was captured by this thread started by the mercurial "Asteroza." (Frank Zappa named his son Dweezil. Dweezil Zappa is a guitar player and not a nuclear engineer attempting to build a vital power technology that can enable a global correction to the planetary carbon cycle and major oceanic desal for fresh water.)

The sCO2 PCS is just as vital. The NET Power machine helps the effort.

The EU Commission unconditionally approved Siemens' acquisition of Dresser-Rand for $7.6 billion; all regulatory approvals required to complete the transaction were obtained. On June 30, 2015, Siemens AG finished the acquisition of Dresser-Rand. They're in Houston and so is La Porte; the site of NET Power's facility.

Let GE advance their sCO2 gas turbine by August 2016 in a couple months. Then they would beat Toshiba and capture the Fickle Finger of Fate award.

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PostPosted: Apr 15, 2016 12:31 pm 
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Such a compact power unit, if ever constructed, will require CO2 compressed to a very high density.
power, if I remember correctly, is
PressureXAreaXSpeed
It could be a piston or a pressure front. So the statements about a mix up of units seem to be correct.


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PostPosted: Apr 18, 2016 3:45 am 
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Which is why the Ramgen CO2 compressor was so interesting. With only two stages it reachs high pressure ratios, plus available process heat from supersonic compression for comparable shaft power.


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PostPosted: Apr 18, 2016 8:11 am 
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Apparently, there has not been any recent news on Ramgen's engine in almost two years. The following is not dated:

Integrated Supersonic Component Engine (ISCE)

The focus seems to be carbon and not thorium. From the above Ramgen document we have:

"Methane is the second largest anthropogenic greenhouse gases contributor, after carbon dioxide, to global warming. Methane, per volume, traps 21 times more heat in the atmosphere than carbon dioxide. (Eliminating 1 ton of methane equals 21 tons of CO2.) Engineers from the Jim Walter Resources mining company and Ramgen staff developed an approach that can use up to 75% of the methane worldwide now being emitted into the atmosphere as fuel to generate electricity. Currently approximately 90% of this methane is vented."

November 10, 2008, we have:

Dresser-Rand Invests In the Development of Game-Changing Compressor Technology Focused on Green Energy

"Ramgen's compressor technology has application in . . . a specific emerging market opportunity that Dresser-Rand is pursuing with Ramgen as the highest priority is in the CO2 compression market as applied to Carbon Capture and Sequestration ("CC&S")," said Brad Dickson, Dresser-Rand's Vice President and Chief Marketing Officer. "Compressing CO2 is one of the most expensive parts of CC&S. The Ramgen CO2 compressor is projected to reduce the capital costs of CO2 compression by as much as 65% and produce a minimum of 25% operating cost savings. Reducing the added cost of CC&S for electrical rates is essential for the worldwide effort to minimize climate change. As the CC&S technologies and regulatory regimes develop over the next several years, we believe this emerging market, as well as the growing market for enhanced oil recovery; will together represent a multi-billion dollar per year market potential for Ramgen's CO2 compressor."

The thorium fuel cycle is not on the DOE/NETL radar. How Ramgen's ISCE will service Flibe Energy's LFTR PCS is what is relevant to this forum. The GE sCO2 gas turbine would service the LFTR PCS. I wondered about the Toshiba turbine and then the ISCE subject was introduced.

DOE NETL is not researching the thorium fuel cycle. NET Power's sCO2 turbine plant is a CC&S technology.

Has Flibe Energy been nominated for a special status like what Materion has for beryllium? If not, then it should be.

Our Technology and Vision

"Flibe Energy is developing liquid-fluoride thorium reactor (LFTR) technology to access the energies of the element thorium, Earth’s most abundant energy-dense natural resource. Fission of one atom of nuclear fuel releases over one-million-times more energy than burning of any hydrocarbon or other fuel molecule. With LFTR technology, 6,600 tons of thorium could provide the energy equivalent of the annual global consumption of 5 billion tons of coal, 31 billion barrels of oil, 3 trillion cubic meters of natural gas, and 65,000 tons of uranium."

This is clearly a first-mover situation. Once our country chooses the next president and a new mix in congress plus one judge, sometime next year after the NET Power Toshiba turbine starts spinning, maybe people will wake up to the thorium future.

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Last edited by Tim Meyer on Apr 18, 2016 8:42 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Apr 18, 2016 8:37 am 
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@Tim,
Did you have another question? I believe I answered your previous question. Your very own post shows nothing between the combustor (which will produce CO2 and H2O) and the turbine; the water separator you mention is downstream from the turbine. Steam quality and possible carbonic acid are valid discussion points. And I do know exactly why I am on this forum, thanks.


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PostPosted: Apr 18, 2016 8:51 am 
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Jim, I'm not a turbine engineer. I posted the diagram from the link (the 8 Rivers Capital document). Toshiba is delivering their turbine in September. It's scheduled to begin running in March 2017. It's a pilot test, right? So if you believe it will fail, then maybe you know why? You're saying the water will scour the blades. That's why I asked if you had specific knowledge of the Toshiba device. The diagram shows CO2 being fed back into the Zeus combustor. Does that keep the water below some fault threshold?

I believe this forum is for a civil discussion of energy from thorium. It's a subject relevant to more than just the highly-skilled engineers. It's a subject that has great consequences for all people from all walks, I think.

The point is that Flibe Energy has stated the intention to use sCO2 gas turbine generators for electrical power. I couldn't find information on commercially available units. But there was the report (earlier post) on NET Power buying the Toshiba machine that apparently is the very first ever built for commerce. The idea is that the sCO2 power generator is 10% more efficient and a tenth the size of a steam turbine machine. Considering GE has a chunk of that market, it'd be good for them to bring the sCO2 machine. Asteroza started this thread exactly with the reports on the GE work that first grabbed my attention.

Evidently, besides Japan, Dresser-Rand in Houston is on the case with the Ramgen ISCE that is not ready for market. People like me are on the outside looking in and somewhat qualified for the discussion. I would like to see a "First-of-It's-Kind" report on Kirk's LFTR yesterday! That's why I wanted to join this forum. So far Kirk is allowing me to post. I'm not sure how long that will last. I don't to intend to be shy about my ignorance out in the open.

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