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 Post subject: Maintaining the fiction
PostPosted: Sep 08, 2013 4:58 pm 
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How does the solar and wind power lobby maintain the fiction of being a viable alternative to fossil fuel sector. In Germany where billions of Euros have been invested in recent years an implosion is occurring in the solar power sector.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/williampent ... imploding/

Quote:
Germany produced a record 23.9 gigawatts of electricity yesterday from thousands of solar photovoltaic systems, according to SMA Solar Technology.

Despite setting yet another solar world record, the collapse of Germany’s solar energy industry seems to be spreading downstream from manufacturers to distributors and installers.


Wind power is also coming up against strong opposition in Germany.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/ger ... 10816.html

It requires building tens or even hundreds of thousands of wind turbines to adequately replace coal and natural gas fired electricity plants in energy intensive areas. These have their own economic and environmental cost and still can't supply electricity on a constant basis so need fossil fuel back-up without resorting to nuclear power...which is something that Germany may be forced to accept.

Quote:
Germany plans to build 60,000 new wind turbines -- in forests, in the foothills of the Alps and even in protected environmental areas. But local residents are up in arms, costs are skyrocketing and Germany's determination to phase out nuclear power is in danger.


It seems to me that some of the chief roadblocks to the large scale implementation of nuclear power is this continuing belief by too many that solar and wind power are economically viable and can provide the kind of consistent energy supply that our societies are mostly dependent on.

At the same time irrational fear of events like the Fukushima accident are being played upon by some to try and prevent examining nuclear power in a rational way. There are even some now claiming that all fish in the Pacific will be contaminated by radioactive cesium from Japan if the waste water is released. Even if all the cesium in the Fukushima reactors was dumped into the Pacific in solution it would soon be so diluted by the vast amount of water it would be almost undetectable after a few years, as the 4.5 billion tons of uranium in the oceans are at only 3 ppb concentration.

It's kind of frustrating having a pretty good idea of what we need to do to meet our energy needs in a safe and sustainable way and constantly being presented with what amounts to fables both positive and negative that make getting that message across very challenging.


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PostPosted: Sep 08, 2013 5:13 pm 
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It seems as if some prominent German environmentalists have had enough with the mad rush in the country to build as many wind turbines as fast as possible.

Quote:
The wrangling over these issues has led many in Germany's Green Party to question what their party really stands for. Enoch zu Guttenberg, a founding member of Friends of the Earth Germany (BUND), noisily left the association last year because of its support for wind power. Since then, he has felt a "panicky need" to warn humanity about the "giant totems of the cult of unlimited energy."

Michael Succow, a prominent German environmentalist and winner of the Alternative Nobel Prize, is also threatening to abandon ship. He fears soulless stretches of land and lost tranquility.


A relatively small number of nuclear power plants could supplant all the wind turbines being planed. The money going into building all the turbines and supporting infrastructure could instead go into developing things like LFTRs and FS-MSRs, giving Germany(and other nations) reliable, affordable, clean and safe energy effectively for the imaginable future.

We also need to consider the future of many bird populations if wind power gets out of hand.

Quote:
So, might we one day see wind turbines with blades stretching up almost 300 meters into the clouds -- a somber memorial to Germany's nuclear phase-out? Even hip urban fans of renewable energy think that would take some getting used to.

Recent studies by bird protectors reveal how the giant blades chop up the air in brutal fashion. "Golden plovers avoid the wind turbines," says Potsdam-based ornithologist Jörg Lippert. Swallows and storks, on the other hand, fly straight into them. The barbastelle bat's lungs collapse as it flies by. A "terrible future" awaits the lesser spotted eagle and red kite, Lippert says.


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PostPosted: Sep 08, 2013 5:28 pm 
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My current theory is that we have an unholy alliance of fossil-fuel businesses and socialists pushing unrealistic long-term energy policy.

Committed socialists still believe that economic inequality is a (or the) major root of social injustice. Therefore, they are still trying to destroy the bourgeoisie, but now that violent revolution has failed, they have fallen back to plan B. Antonio Gramsci described methods (in Prison Notebooks) by which a dedicated cadre of socialists could destabilize capitalist societies using relatively small amounts of resources. One of the crucial methods that has been advocated recently is to use environmentalism to control industry. Cheap, clean energy will therefore never be on the socialist agenda until after the bourgeoisie have been literally killed. There's a well-researched movie about this: "Agenda: Grinding America Down", produced by Curtiss Bowers, a retired congressman. Of course it looks like right-wing insanity until you check the references.

Fossil-fuel businesses have obvious motives. They also have money, and appear to be funding the socialists. Indirectly, of course: family contributions to non-profit foundations that fund NGOs. They're class traitors of course, and are likely to be shot after the revolution, like all useful idiots.

I think natural gas is a tacit compromise by these two groups to oppose nuclear. (note that fracking did not enter wide use until the nuclear industry restarted, and then it appeared very quickly) Currently cheap, once the infrastructure has been built-out, the investors can just bring the LNG export systems on line, and extract ruinous profits. The socialists are planning on this: Ruinous profits is another way of saying "impoverishing people". Poor people are unhappy, less-educated... easier to radicalize. Further, LNG facilities are famously both dangerous and fragile, so that centralized political controls can be engineered more easily. Natural gas contributes to social centralization and fragility, both pluses for militant socialists, and of no importance to investors.

You know that something is up when people lie in public, right? Like "hydrogen energy storage." Or "wind power." Things that work for vacation homes, but not steel mills or cement kilns.


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PostPosted: Sep 08, 2013 7:59 pm 
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Socialism...a persistent, self-regenerating, unending plague on civilized society. Can it ever be stamped out permanently? Or will it always be regenerated in the rising generation---in the minds of despondent, unambitious, lazy, envious youth?


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PostPosted: Sep 08, 2013 11:18 pm 
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Location: Idaho Falls, Idaho
http://energy.gov/articles/americas-wind-industry-reaches-record-highs
It does not help that the DOE web site purports that 50 gigawatts of installed capacity is actually generating 50 gigawatts of power.


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PostPosted: Sep 08, 2013 11:35 pm 
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Renewables are neither a fiction nor a source of main utilities. They have a place in distributed sector.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/kensilverst ... utilities/
http://www.scientificamerican.com/artic ... olar-power
Taken too far to replace mainstream power, they are a problem
http://www.forbes.com/sites/williampent ... s%3Aenergy
Things are not an entirely black or white. However wind or solar farms are an abomination.


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PostPosted: Sep 09, 2013 2:31 am 
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I understand ( as most educated people do) that the only thing on this earth that can replace fossil fuels and lower the price of energy is widescale LFTR adoption.

I understand that SOLAR and WIND are backed by fossil fuel giants. "SOLAR and WIND" are dead end technology that can never replace fossil fuels as energy source. SOLAR and WIND are too costly, wont work at night, or without wind. "SOLAR and WIND" are just hyped by fossil fuels to distract from the only real solution, (LFTR).



All I care about is how to take advantage of the situation. Any ideas?


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PostPosted: Sep 09, 2013 11:26 am 
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Kirk Sorensen wrote:
Socialism...a persistent, self-regenerating, unending plague on civilized society. Can it ever be stamped out permanently? Or will it always be regenerated in the rising generation---in the minds of despondent, unambitious, lazy, envious youth?


And here I thought this site was supposed to be non political.

The Socialist movement is so balkanised these days that it is impossible to lay the blame for the decline of nuclear power in the west at the door of the "socialist menace".
This is just another example of "reds under the bed".

Might I note that the most succesful nuclear build out in history was implemented by a state owned power concern, one of the things that many left wingers (like myself) want to see be re-implemented elsewhere?

I can find just as many socialists who are for nuclear power as against, as they see it as the most effective way to provide incredibly cheap energy in incredibly large amounts, which I believe, is going to be the single most important tool available to tackle rising living standard inequalities.


And lets not get into the argument that young people just envy the old, since I could point out how, in the UK atleast, the older generation has enjoyed near full employment, a cradle to grave welfare state, free further education and numerous other things and then it rips them out so those budgets can be redirected to make them the most well off generation of pensioners that will ever exist. Essentially they have kicked away the ladder.


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PostPosted: Sep 09, 2013 12:36 pm 
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E Ireland wrote:
And here I thought this site was supposed to be non political.

The Socialist movement is so balkanised these days that it is impossible to lay the blame for the decline of nuclear power in the west at the door of the "socialist menace".
This is just another example of "reds under the bed".

Might I note that the most succesful nuclear build out in history was implemented by a state owned power concern, one of the things that many left wingers (like myself) want to see be re-implemented elsewhere?

I can find just as many socialists who are for nuclear power as against, as they see it as the most effective way to provide incredibly cheap energy in incredibly large amounts, which I believe, is going to be the single most important tool available to tackle rising living standard inequalities.


And lets not get into the argument that young people just envy the old, since I could point out how, in the UK atleast, the older generation has enjoyed near full employment, a cradle to grave welfare state, free further education and numerous other things and then it rips them out so those budgets can be redirected to make them the most well off generation of pensioners that will ever exist. Essentially they have kicked away the ladder.


I entirely agree. I was sure the comments were in jest, or satire, so I ignored them when i made my earlier post. Nothing good will happen on these forums as long as political "terms" are used. I still think quoted post was sarcasm, but sarcasm doesnt work on the internets.

(i dont like big powerful governments, and unfortunately big powerful governments are usually required for socialism to work)


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PostPosted: Sep 09, 2013 1:59 pm 
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I hadn't thought of a socialist-fossil fuel sector link, but that makes sense. I think both groups can be very opportunistic if they see an opening. I've also wondered what influence Angela Merkel's background in East Germany has had on her policies, as she didn't grow up in a free market society.

I also think there's more than enough evidence that if we do in fact keep pursuing current policy in regards to supporting solar and wind over nuclear power we will crash the system both economically and environmentally, but I seriously doubt if there's going to much left for anybody to call it a victory.

A limited form of socialism can be beneficial, like the building of the US interstate highway system and the electrification of the nation, but too much and you kill off innovation and investment. One of the great things I like about nuclear power, especially LFTRs, is it will create an entirely new social and economic structure that is limited more by imagination than physical constraints. Things like colonization of space and building of sustainable societies become possible once the volatility and insecurity of the fossil fuel sector are removed.

Maybe that's one reason that some groups hold onto such intermittent power sources like wind and solar as an alternative to fossil fuels. They will allow a volatility in the markets that has made some people very rich. With nuclear power you can plan decades ahead with confidence that the energy is going to be there.


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PostPosted: Sep 09, 2013 2:55 pm 
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NicholasJanssen wrote:
I entirely agree. I was sure the comments were in jest, or satire, so I ignored them when i made my earlier post. Nothing good will happen on these forums as long as political "terms" are used. I still think quoted post was sarcasm, but sarcasm doesnt work on the internets.


I didn't read it that way at all. The drift toward socialism is bankrupting both Europe and the US. In the end, it can end civilization as we know it faster than bad energy policy can.

NicholasJanssen wrote:
(i dont like big powerful governments, and unfortunately big powerful governments are usually required for socialism to work)


BINGO! You're starting to get it.

In fact, socialism is precisely the ruse by which power-hungry politicians gain power. You are aware that Hitler was a socialist, right? The Nazis were the National Socialist German Workers Party. Have you ever seen snippets of those wild-eyed speeches he was famous for? Do you know what he was saying? In addition to the racial crap, he also railed frenetically against the rich -- many of whom were Jews, of course.


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PostPosted: Sep 09, 2013 3:34 pm 
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Russ wrote:
NicholasJanssen wrote:
I entirely agree. I was sure the comments were in jest, or satire, so I ignored them when i made my earlier post. Nothing good will happen on these forums as long as political "terms" are used. I still think quoted post was sarcasm, but sarcasm doesnt work on the internets.


I didn't read it that way at all. The drift toward socialism is bankrupting both Europe and the US. In the end, it can end civilization as we know it faster than bad energy policy can.


Drift towards socialism?
What Europe have you been watching?

Europe has been drifting to the right for the last 30 years or more.

Russ wrote:
NicholasJanssen wrote:
(i dont like big powerful governments, and unfortunately big powerful governments are usually required for socialism to work)


BINGO! You're starting to get it.

In fact, socialism is precisely the ruse by which power-hungry politicians gain power. You are aware that Hitler was a socialist, right? The Nazis were the National Socialist German Workers Party. Have you ever seen snippets of those wild-eyed speeches he was famous for? Do you know what he was saying? In addition to the racial crap, he also railed frenetically against the rich -- many of whom were Jews, of course.


The NSDAP acquired its name as a result of the Nationalist party that Hitler actually espoused somehow managing to take over the Social Democrats that existed in Germany at the time, I believe it was an electoral pact against the conservatives.
Most of the Socialists in the NSDAP ended up in the camps alongside the Jews, they were simply a stepping stone to power.

And I believe that trips Godwin's Law and I thus win the internet.


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PostPosted: Sep 09, 2013 3:41 pm 
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@DougC
I fully agree (and thus I have nothing to add).

EDIT: I meant that I fully agree with your first post, and having read the rest of the thread, I actually also fully agree with your later posts.


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PostPosted: Sep 09, 2013 3:49 pm 
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If "Godwin's Law" forbids learning from history, and people agree with that, then we are doomed to repeat it.

I suggest you read up on the Nazi philosophy. They were driven by envy of the rich, and they were unabashed socialists. Here's some Goebbels for you:

Quote:
We are socialists because we see in socialism, that is the union of all citizens, the only chance to maintain our racial inheritance and to regain our political freedom and renew our German state.

Socialism is the doctrine of liberation for the working class. It promotes the rise of the fourth class and its incorporation in the political organism of our Fatherland, and is inextricably bound to breaking the present slavery and the regaining of German freedom. Socialism therefore is not merely a matter of the oppressed class, but a matter for everyone, for freeing the German people from slavery is the goal of contemporary policy. Socialism gains its true form only through a total combat brotherhood with the forward-striving energies of a newly awakened nationalism. Without nationalism it is nothing, a phantom, a mere theory, a castle in the sky, a book. With it it is everything, the future, freedom, the Fatherland!


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PostPosted: Sep 09, 2013 3:51 pm 
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Joshua Maurice wrote:
@DougC
I fully agree (and thus I have nothing to add).

EDIT: I meant that I fully agree with your first post, and having read the rest of the thread, I actually also fully agree with your later posts.


A lot of that is summing up what I've learned here.


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