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PostPosted: Jan 04, 2015 12:45 pm 
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If we're talking about integrated LFTR/MSR NPP's with other forms of generation this thread does a good job of exploring the salt storage area Coping with a CalISO Duck - Load Following MSR with Storage

The trouble with salt storage is that it is still so much smaller than what is required for seasonal storage, sometimes even hydro-electric resources struggle with that. I believe the most pragmatic solution to that is the use of natural gas in CCGT or OCGT to supplement the system in a way that can be sustained over a longer period. There is also the option of systems that integrate supplementary cofiring of natural gas with nuclear, whether we should ever add one peril to another is significant question in it's own right. Personally I support the sensible integration of peaking resources into the NPP so long as the sum is greater than the parts working separately.


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PostPosted: Jan 04, 2015 4:03 pm 
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Gas is economical at present in the US and is accordingly popular. Things are quite different in rest of the world. Nuclear is economical and getting more and more popular in China. Adding a salt storage will provide some load following flexibility to nuclear energy and add value to it. I was suggesting to use it to accommodate some renewable energy, which will come in anyway due to political following. The energy rich countries are now going for renewable at the cost of nuclear. The synergy will benefit us all in the flexible period.


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PostPosted: Jan 04, 2015 5:00 pm 
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Has anyone ever done a study on using a giant cistern full of chilled water to load shift air conditioning requirements?
The same cistern could be filled with hot water in the water to be used for load shifting space heating.

No molten salts or associated safety issues - and the filling material is cheap as cheap can be.


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PostPosted: Jan 04, 2015 5:50 pm 
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E Ireland wrote:
Has anyone ever done a study on using a giant cistern full of chilled water to load shift air conditioning requirements?
The same cistern could be filled with hot water in the water to be used for load shifting space heating.

No molten salts or associated safety issues - and the filling material is cheap as cheap can be.
The narrower temperature range for the system coupled with the high costs of distribution networks for the thermal energy would make this unworkable at an acceptable cost.


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PostPosted: Jan 04, 2015 7:57 pm 
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E Ireland wrote:
Has anyone ever done a study on using a giant cistern full of chilled water to load shift air conditioning requirements?
The same cistern could be filled with hot water in the water to be used for load shifting space heating.

No molten salts or associated safety issues - and the filling material is cheap as cheap can be.


I have heard of air conditioning systems making ice at night with off peak energy and when it is cooler. The phase transition between ice and water greatly increases the cold storage capacity.

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PostPosted: Jan 05, 2015 6:05 am 
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Depends on the reservoir cost. If it is expensive like for a tank or small system, making ice would make more sense, despite the lower efficiency and nuisance of dealing with solid/phase change.

If the reservoir is ludicrously cheap, like a giant existing underground well of some sort, then it might make sense. Especially for a big system because you could conceivably live with the high heat losses to the surrounding rock.

Probably limited use this, only for giant systems that happen to have a suitable reservoir nearby.


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PostPosted: Jan 05, 2015 8:24 am 
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[url]Depends on the reservoir cost. If it is expensive like for a tank or small system, making ice would make more sense, despite the lower efficiency and nuisance of dealing with solid/phase change.[/url]

About ten years ago, I remember reading about this building they were constructing at the University of Minnesota. It had a reservoir beneath it that did just what was suggested. It would allow below zero air to circulate around the tank to freeze the material. This must have been water or something with higher specific heat. During the Summer air would circulate around the froxen stuff, get cooled and be used for air conditioning.

I couldn't find a link to that building, but it isn't so different than geothermal heating and cooling used in more Northern parts of the United States when the 50 degree water stored in the Earth is used as a thermal reservoir for heating and cooling via a heat pump. Alternately, water is circulated in coils buried below the Earth to accomplish the same objective. It beats the cost of propane and you don't have to chop and split it.

Here's a link to a glossy brochure. Not too hard to read, either, no triple integrals or partial derivatives.

http://www.nwf.org/pdf/Reports/Geothermal%20Guide%20FINAL%203-1-11.pdf

Geothermal heating is a clean way to heat and cool a building if the electricity is provided by a source such as nuclear power.


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PostPosted: Jan 05, 2015 8:39 am 
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When I worked for Sperry Univac back in the late Seventies they built a new manufacturing center in San Jose California. For air conditioning they used a chiller ran at night to make ice that was stored in a large tank under the parking lot. During daytime hours the stored “cold” was used in fan coil units to cool the buildings. It must not have been very economical at that time as I have not seen it done again.

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PostPosted: Jan 05, 2015 2:59 pm 
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Mike Swift
Although environmentalists say we must reduce CO2 to prevent global warming they can never mention the “N” word as part of the solution.

Your tag's not really fair. There are many environmentalists who do support nuclear and more all the time (I'll let you find your own list ... but a recent example is Barry Brooks letter with 65 signatures from conservation biologists). Why antagonize people who have 'changed their mind'? ... not an easy thing for any human.


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PostPosted: Jan 05, 2015 4:06 pm 
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Perhaps what he meant to say was that no "environmental" organizations will support nuclear energy.


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PostPosted: Jan 05, 2015 9:20 pm 
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Tomswift wrote:
When I worked for Sperry Univac back in the late Seventies they built a new manufacturing center in San Jose California. For air conditioning they used a chiller ran at night to make ice that was stored in a large tank under the parking lot. During daytime hours the stored “cold” was used in fan coil units to cool the buildings. It must not have been very economical at that time as I have not seen it done again.

This can help load shift HVAC load, but it can't act as an energy store for power generation purposes whch is what we really need.


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PostPosted: Jan 06, 2015 8:23 am 
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Storage of energy for electricity generation purposes appears largely impractical with the exception of pumped storage facilities.

It may be that load shifting of HVAC/Heating is the best we can do.


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PostPosted: Jan 06, 2015 12:34 pm 
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Lindsay wrote:
If we're talking about integrated LFTR/MSR NPP's with other forms of generation this thread does a good job of exploring the salt storage area Coping with a CalISO Duck - Load Following MSR with Storage

The trouble with salt storage is that it is still so much smaller than what is required for seasonal storage, sometimes even hydro-electric resources struggle with that. I believe the most pragmatic solution to that is the use of natural gas in CCGT or OCGT to supplement the system in a way that can be sustained over a longer period. There is also the option of systems that integrate supplementary cofiring of natural gas with nuclear, whether we should ever add one peril to another is significant question in it's own right. Personally I support the sensible integration of peaking resources into the NPP so long as the sum is greater than the parts working separately.


Most of the seasonal variation can be covered by scheduling the service times for NPP during the low demand season - at least with existing NPP's. With MSRs the refueling time decreases - but I suspect that required servicing for turbines etc will keep utilization around 90%.


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PostPosted: Jan 06, 2015 3:59 pm 
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SteveK9, your right I have been using this sig. line for several years now, and it does seem that more, and more environmentalists are seeing the light. Like Kirk said I believe that most environmental groups, however have a different perspective in that they have a funding requirement that must be watched closely, and people donating may stop if they see their organization straying away from what they think is the “right” path.

I am not sure what approach to take to reduce the opposition to nuclear power by environmental groups except to get positive press coverage for nuclear power, however with all of the juicy stories supplied to the press by these environmental organizations this will be difficult. In the press corporations are often portrayed as evil because they work to make “profits”, while “non profits”, are good as they are driven only by doing some “good”, and not profits.

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PostPosted: Jan 07, 2015 8:48 am 
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Tom,

It starts with individuals and then organizations. I'd have to look it up (lazy again) but there are environmental groups considering, if not changing their position on nuclear power.

Corporations and NGO's: I prefer to think about individuals again, and not generalize. There are some corporate CEO's (the heads of the Wall Street banks comes to mind) that I would consider to be criminal sociopaths ('evil'? maybe). There are heads of NGO's that really are noble people (Doctors without Borders?). It's not rigorously tied to 'profit' or 'non-profit'.

So, of course there are counter examples ... I'm not too fond of the leaders of Friends of the Earth, Greenpeace or the Sierra Club (which has really strayed from its origins). And, there are companies doing a lot of good in the World (while making money).

Lastly, there are individuals like Helen Caldecott, or Robert Alvarez, who are truly despicable fear mongers (they really are in the 'business' of selling fear ... and they make a profit at it).


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