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PostPosted: Jun 17, 2015 1:32 pm 
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I know that much has been talked about LNT vs. Threshold Effect Theory (TET) and Hormesis Effect Theory (HET).

But I was wandering if anyone/group has actually proposed New Dosing limit guidelines based on TET or HET?


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PostPosted: Jun 21, 2015 12:48 am 
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IIRC, Dr Carol Marcus has just written a rule change proposal to the NRC on that very thing. Her letter is quite good.

Personally, I would like to see the LED (Linear Excess Dose) rule used. Basically one uses all the LNT data but calculates the effective dose by integrating any dose above the threshold of about 12 µSv/hr.

FYI, These are her recommendations:
RECOMMENDED CHANGES FOR 10 CFR PART 20
It is therefore requested that the NRC greatly simplify and change Part 20 to take radiation hormesis into account. The following recommendations are made:
1) Worker doses should remain at present levels, with allowance of up to 100 mSv (10 rem) effective dose per year if the doses are chronic.
2) ALARA should be removed entirely from the regulations, as it makes no sense to decrease radiation doses that are not only harmless but may be hormetic.
3) Public doses should be raised to worker doses, as these low doses may be hormetic. Why deprive the public of the benefits of low dose radiation?
4) End differential doses to pregnant women, embryos and fetuses, and children under 18 years of age.

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PostPosted: Jun 21, 2015 1:28 pm 
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KitemanSA wrote:
IIRC, Dr Carol Marcus has just written a rule change proposal to the NRC on that very thing. Her letter is quite good.

Cool thanks; do you have a link to her recommendation or a link to her work?

Although not exactly what I was looking for, I found and article related to public policy of Tritium in drinking water in Canada. It goes into much detail and has a lot of good reference material notations. Though, it gives a clear recommendation, to NOT lower the limit, I have not yet found if the recommendation was followed. I just thought that some of you may find it interesting.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3057633/


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PostPosted: Jun 22, 2015 3:28 pm 
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KitemanSA wrote:
... it makes no sense to decrease radiation doses that are not only harmless but may be hormetic.
Public doses should be raised... Why deprive the public of the benefits of low dose radiation?.

In his book ATOMIC ACCIDENTS, James Mahaffey wrote about the so-called beneficial medicinal qualities of RADITHOR:
Quote:
Eben Byers had been rich and well known, and the New York Times took his death as important and worthy of front-page reporting. The headline was crude, but it still has a compelling effect on even the casual reader: THE RADIUM WATER WORKED FINE UNTILE HIS JAW CAME OFF


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PostPosted: Jun 22, 2015 5:32 pm 
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Oldest and dumbest trick in the book.

No one denies that massive doses of radiation will harm or kill you.
In the radium watch painter data, there is big jump from nil cases
to 25% bone cancers at around 100 to 120 Sv,
If you read Mahaffey carefully, this guy was above that.


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PostPosted: Jun 22, 2015 6:38 pm 
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Here are three links to sources for low dose / doserate response science.

http://radiationeffects.org
http://dose-response.org
http://www.belleonline.com/newsletters.htm

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PostPosted: Jun 22, 2015 6:40 pm 
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http://pdfs.journals.lww.com/nuclearmed ... sis.25.pdf

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PostPosted: Jun 24, 2015 2:31 am 
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KitemanSA wrote:
IIRC, Dr. Carol Marcus has just written...
Someone is pulling a prank. Dr. Carol Marcus is the brilliant scientist and noted molecular biologist who directed the ambitious Project Genesis, which attempted to develop a radiation process to rapidly terraform uninhabitable planets into worlds suitable for humanoid life. Unfortunately, she is a fictional Star Trek character.
KitemanSA wrote:
Public doses should be raised... Why deprive the public of the benefits of low dose radiation?
As wonderful as your idea is, I doubt that our beloved "greenies" would allow the FDA to establish minimum daily allowances for radiation. But, do not despair. As a Navy Seal, you have other ways to raise the public dose. You could, out of the goodness of your heart, undertake a secret mission to steel nuclear waste and blend it into the nation's stockpile of peanut butter (the kind used in school lunch programs). If successful, you would save the lives of millions of school children, and surely receive a Nobel Prize for solving the world's radioactive waste problem.
djw1 wrote:
No one denies that massive doses of radiation... radium watch painter data... 120 Sv.
Nobody mentioned watch painters. RADITHOR came in low dose bottles, according to the manufacturer, each half ounce bottle contained one microcurie each of radium-226 and radium-228. After the bottles were filled with active ingredients from the nearby American Radium Laboratory, each bottle was corked, wrapped with a paper banner that said "A Cure for the Living Dead," marked up by about 500 percent, and resold.

Radium is a "bone seker" that exhibits biochemical behavior similar to calcium. Converting the "activity" of Radithor to "dose equivalent" is not a trivial process. First, a hypothetical persons bodymass is posited. Next, we assume 70-80% of the dose gets excreted after ingestion. Finally, because the biological half-life of radium is unknown, it must be estimated (I.e. 15 years). Thus, if realistic values are used, Radithor's calculated dose equivalent will be below 0.05 Sv.


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PostPosted: Jun 24, 2015 9:52 am 
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The watch painter data is relevant to any discussion of massive doses of radium.

Mahaffey claims that Byers drank "about 1400" bottles of Radithor between late 1927
and 1931. That's about 70 Sv using your numbers. Could have been considerably more.
Anyway a massive dose, far outside the range of what the hormesis people
are talking about.

The hormesis folks are talking 1 mSv/d or less. You've brought in
a "counter example" which is inthe range of 50 mSv/d or more,
That's a Greenpeace style ploy.


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PostPosted: Jun 25, 2015 10:11 pm 
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BSFusion wrote:
KitemanSA wrote:
IIRC, Dr. Carol Marcus has just written...
Someone is pulling a prank. Dr. Carol Marcus is the brilliant scientist and noted molecular biologist who directed the ambitious Project Genesis, which attempted to develop a radiation process to rapidly terraform uninhabitable planets into worlds suitable for humanoid life. Unfortunately, she is a fictional Star Trek character.


Well, other people can have the same name and this Carol Marcus predates the Star Trek one by decades. http://www.healthgrades.com/physician/d ... rcus-xbjcv


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PostPosted: Jun 26, 2015 12:06 am 
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That is too cool!


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PostPosted: Jun 26, 2015 1:08 pm 
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You going to change your name to Sheldon Cooper?


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PostPosted: Jun 28, 2015 9:40 am 
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Here is the NRC Request for Comment. I have commented already.

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2015-06 ... -15441.pdf

There are actually three Petitions for Rule Making, Dr Marcus' and two similar. They are all under one docket number.

PLEASE comment. It is very simple.

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Last edited by KitemanSA on Jul 04, 2015 12:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Jun 28, 2015 6:14 pm 
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KitemanSA wrote:
Here is the IRS Request for Comment. I have commented already.

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2015-06 ... -15441.pdf

There are actually three Petitions for Rule Making, Dr Marcus' and two similar. They are all under one docket number.

PLEASE comment. It is very simple.

Excellent, thanks for finding and posting the link. I am sure that we all want to comment, because you know that the Radiophobia, fear mongering types will be.


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PostPosted: Jun 30, 2015 11:58 pm 
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Quote:
The watch painter data is relevant to any discussion of massive doses of radium… The hormesis folks are talking 1 mSv/d or less.
The problem was not that the individual doses were massive; Radithor came in low doses, only 1 microcurie of radium per bottle. But, unlike tritium, which quickly flushes out of the body, radium is a “bone seeker” with a biological longevity that is measured in years, not days. Long term consumption of radium causes deposits to build up inside the bones. Once there, radioactive exposure cannot be turned off. The additive accumulation of radioactivity over time was the “killer” issue, not the size of individual doses. If those hormesis folks were foolish enough to start taking your low-dose regiment (1 mSv/d), they all would be dead within a few years.

Even if there are potential health benefits from low dose exposures (i.e. by triggering a biological response that could potentially diminish cellular damage from subsequent high dose exposures), serious negative effects have been documented. For example, iron accumulation and modification of iron metabolism in the kidneys was reported, there were also effects on the nervous system, including increases in paradoxical sleep and anxiety, a decrease in short-term memory, etc.

It worries me that the members of this forum seem unconcerned about radioactive buildup in the environment. Globally, about 1 in 4 humans are destined to acquire cancer. Instead of trying to circumvent pollution standards, we should be thinking of ways to lower the background level of contamination. Some radioactive isotopes (i.e. K-40) occur naturally, but the simplistic argument “we eat bananas” is too feeble to justify the conclusion “increasing the background level of radiation is harmless, and may even be helpful.” Is there no one familiar with the St. Louis baby tooth study?

Every single day of your life your body produces anywhere from a few hundred to as many as 10,000 misprogrammed cells as part of normal metabolic processes. The trick is that if your immune system is healthy or not overwhelmed by too many rogue cells, it eliminates each and every one of those cells. What we call cancer results when the immune system fails to do its job and allows some of those rogue cells to survive long enough to begin to replicate and “establish a beachhead” in your body. We also know quite convincingly, and all nonsensical prehistoric arguments aside, that the incidence of cancer has increased dramatically over the last century. And how do you change those odds?
* Minimize your exposure to toxins and foods that are likely to increase the number of misprogrammed cells in your body.
* Clean out (detox) four times a year to get rid of any toxins that will inevitably make their way into your body.
* Build up your immune system using immune boosters to maximize your body’s ability to eliminate 100% of the rogue cells produced in your body.


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