Energy From Thorium Discussion Forum

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 Post subject: Re: Granite EROEI
PostPosted: Jan 25, 2017 4:32 pm 
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Foundmy initial source.
19-37kWh per tonne of granite in 1956.

An SEU fueled stock CANDU can produce ~91MWh(e)/kg

Which means that if ~4g of uranium can be obtained (from the Cornubian granite at 16ppm) per tonne, we would expect to produce ~360kWh/t granite.
So our simplistic EROEI is something like 10:1 - which is huge and obviously an overestimate but it shows that energy costs are not limiting in this case.

To produce 20MWh of electricity per UK resident [Quebec rates] we would expect to consume 13000t of natural uranium per year, translating to something like 3.3 billion tonnes of granite per year. Which is about 1.5 cubic kilometres/yr
Which is a lot.
But small compared to reserves.


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 Post subject: Re: Granite EROEI
PostPosted: Jan 25, 2017 6:00 pm 
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E Ireland wrote:
Foundmy initial source.
19-37kWh per tonne of granite in 1956.

An SEU fueled stock CANDU can produce ~91MWh(e)/kg

Which means that if ~4g of uranium can be obtained (from the Cornubian granite at 16ppm) per tonne, we would expect to produce ~360kWh/t granite.
So our simplistic EROEI is something like 10:1 - which is huge and obviously an overestimate but it shows that energy costs are not limiting in this case.

To produce 20MWh of electricity per UK resident [Quebec rates] we would expect to consume 13000t of natural uranium per year, translating to something like 3.3 billion tonnes of granite per year. Which is about 1.5 cubic kilometres/yr
Which is a lot.
But small compared to reserves.


That nice but only about 1% of the world's people live in the UK. The world is getting too crowded to keep pretending that we're all somehow going to be able to survive without a hell of a lot more international cooperation (unselfish behavior) than we're seeing now. As far as I am concerned, China seems to have the only sort of government capable of making/leading the sorts of changes that must happen.

the following is from the Conclusions of my last ATTACHMENT

"The main reason why the leadership of First World (developed, capitalistic, industrialized) democracies resist the fundamental changes needed to realize Weinberg/Goeller’s “Age of Substitutability” is that once a particular way of doing/providing anything is established, the people that own, implement, regulate, support or otherwise profit from that business model resist change. This is why unsustainable light water-type reactors continue to dominate the nuclear power industry and that very little effort/resources have been devoted to developing superior alternatives (Till 2011 and Siemer 2014)."

DOE "supports" today's nuclear industry, not the future's

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 Post subject: Re: Granite EROEI
PostPosted: Jan 25, 2017 9:31 pm 
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Conway Granite in New England contains ~60ppm of which almost 50 is extractable. Seems like a whole lot better ERoEI!

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 Post subject: Re: Granite EROEI
PostPosted: Jan 26, 2017 11:44 am 
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KitemanSA wrote:
Conway Granite in New England contains ~60ppm of which almost 50 is extractable. Seems like a whole lot better ERoEI!


Neat. Do you have a reference?

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 Post subject: Re: Granite EROEI
PostPosted: Jan 26, 2017 10:14 pm 
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This survey gives 56 ppm of thorium, plus or minus 6, and talks about uranium content too but without quantifying it. Interesting that the survey was ' communicated by M. King Hubbert ' - the prophet of the Peak Oil crowd.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC221093/


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 Post subject: Re: Granite EROEI
PostPosted: Jan 27, 2017 6:13 am 
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darryl siemer wrote:
jagdish wrote:
Uranium consumption and price are going down of late. All that stone breaking and crushing may not find any takers.
The good news for nuclear energy is IMSR and Russian fast breeders.
Rich uranium ores are found in Canada. Thorium is available as by-product of rare earth mining.
So, just provide thorium blankets in IMSR and fast reactors (even LWR and PHWRs) and you have fissile to burn all of easily available quantities of uranium and thorium for your energy requirements for millania.


U prices will immediately spike if the world really does decide to implement a nuclear renaissance - esp with anything other than full-blown breeders (GOOGLE "uranium cartel"). As currently envisioned, IMSRs & THORCONs aren't all that much more "sustainable" than are today's LWRs. In principle, Russia's (or GE-Hitachii's S Prism) LMFBRs could do the job if (& only if) accompanied by as yet-unproven, practical/affordable, fuel reprocessing systems.

Reprocessing done so far in UK and France has produced more RG plutonium than the demand so far. Once the recycling starts, it will be further developed. Even the lifter concept depends on reprocessing in long term.
We already have huge quantities of depleted/recovered/(held in used fuel) uranium for centuries for recycling. Rising uranium costs are unlikely and immaterial.
Thorium could be useful only due to increased fissile production and superiority of U-233 as fissile feed.


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 Post subject: Re: Granite EROEI
PostPosted: Jan 27, 2017 8:11 am 
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Even the UKs pile of a hundred tonnes of reactor grade plutonium would not last long in a serious nuclear upswing scenario.
4 CANDU-6s can burn through it (once-through) in 30 years.
In other words, probably less than one DArlington for 30 years. [Higher neutron economy but much higher power output]

This options report is very illuminating. It suggests a mixed three element Pu-U-Th fuel using Magnox Depleted Uranium, ThORP Produced Uranium and Thorium to get superior performance. Five CANDU-6s of ~700MWe net output for 27 years is the best option given restrictions on availability of those materials.


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 Post subject: Re: Granite EROEI
PostPosted: Jan 27, 2017 12:39 pm 
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jon wrote:
This survey gives 56 ppm of thorium, plus or minus 6, and talks about uranium content too but without quantifying it. Interesting that the survey was ' communicated by M. King Hubbert ' - the prophet of the Peak Oil crowd.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC221093/


I found another - http://www.iaea.org/inis/collection/NCL ... 020917.pdf - that does give a U concentration of Conway granite (among others) - 12 ppm. Its number for Th is 57 ppm.

The one you found suggests that getting 1 pound of Th out of Conway granite would cost about one hundred 1962-type dollars. There's been an inflation factor of 7.95 since then & the getting of a pound of U out of it would require 57/12 x as much "treatment" as for Th, so the cost getting 1 kg of Conway's NU would be about $8300. Since the fueling of a modern PWR requires about 160 tonnes of NU/year, that's about 1.3 $billion per year/GWe just for raw U (adds $0.11/kWr to the total price ). Digging enough of it out of the ground to fuel 30,000 1 GWe LWRs would create about 235 Berkley Pit -sized holes/per year.

We must concentrate on breeders.

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 Post subject: Re: Granite EROEI
PostPosted: Jan 27, 2017 2:44 pm 
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Most projections have seawater uranium at under $1000/kg.
And in a granite situation it is likely you would not be building run of the mill PWRs.


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