Molten Bismuth as a secondary coolant

Discussion about gas-turbine and other power conversion systems for halide reactors.
David
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WARNING

Post by David » Sep 20, 2007 8:47 am

Hotfluids,

WARNING!

Those direct links are still being redirected to the scam site. I guess we should be proud that Molten Salt is such a popular subject that someone created a moltensalt.org scam site! I think I remember it coming up once when I did a general google search on "molten salt". You should probably edit your posts so that no one does hit them by mistake.

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honzik
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Re: ! Do not use my MoltenSalt.org links - they may be corru

Post by honzik » Sep 20, 2007 11:11 am

HotFluids wrote:I seem to remember that Rickover & GE did the same, and came up with the SIR (Submarine/Sodium Intermediate Reactor), a liquid sodium cooled, graphite moderated reactor:

The Rickover Effect

Rickover was reported to hate the reactor and had it taken out of the Seawolf after just a few years. Reportedly, it leaked so much radiation it caused the sea water around the sub to glow blue; oh, that made the sub stealthy!


You remember correctly. I was talking with my dad about all things nuclear (he was a senior guy at GE for many years), and this subject came up. He said that Rickover indeed hated the reactor because it seemed like such a lousy idea to have so much sodium and water at such close proximity, and was frustrated with GE for proposing it. Rickover is reported to have said "If the ocean were made of sodium, GE would have proposed a water moderated reactor."

elsa.merle
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Re: Molten Bismuth as a secondary coolant

Post by elsa.merle » Jun 09, 2009 8:29 am

Bonjour,

Je ne parviens pas à trouver le papier de P.R. Kasten sur MOSEL (le lien ne fonctionne pas). Comment puis-je l'obtenir ?

Par avance merci pour toute info
*-------------------------------------
| Dr.Elsa MERLE-LUCOTTE
| LPSC - Reactor Physics Group
| CNRS - IN2P3 / INPG - ENSPG
| mailto: merle@lpsc.in2p3.fr
*-------------------------------------------------------

David
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Re: Molten Bismuth as a secondary coolant

Post by David » Jun 09, 2009 10:48 am

elsa.merle wrote:Bonjour,

Je ne parviens pas à trouver le papier de P.R. Kasten sur MOSEL (le lien ne fonctionne pas). Comment puis-je l'obtenir ?

Par avance merci pour toute info
Elsa,

Ici une version electronic pour une des papier MOSEL. Alors, c'est pas le meilleur parse que c'est juste de le choixe de geometry de core. Si vous voudriez un document imprimé du meilleur papier je peux vous envoyer celui.
MOSELpaper.pdf
(502.32 KiB) Downloaded 357 times
David LeBlanc

N.B. Else Merle-Lecotte was asking about any links to the MOSEL work of Kasten (ORNL and in Germany). MOSEL was a Two Fluid design that kept the two fluids separated within the core by layer after layer of steel or Hastelloy barriers. Even with all that metal they still expected a good breeding ratio. The design looked hopelessly complex to me though. Does anyone know of any other electronic copies? The best paper was from one of the "Peaceful uses of the atom" conferences around 1960. I have a paper copy but have never found an electronic version. I guess I can just scan my copy later at home.

Luke
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Re: Molten Bismuth as a secondary coolant

Post by Luke » Jun 09, 2009 12:00 pm

The papers are still at the moltesalt.org site, but the links are corrupt. If you go to the index page linked in hotfuids' post
http://www.moltensalt.org/references/st ... Index.html

you will find links of the form

"http://www.moltensalt.org/moltensalt.or ... ignOCR.pdf"

the repetition of moltensalt.org/ is incorrect. If you copy the link, paste it into the browser sddress bar, and edit it to

http://www.moltensalt.org/references/st ... ignOCR.pdf

it will work.

Given comments earlier in the thread, Mac, linux or other good antivirus protection may be advisable.

Luke

David
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Re: Molten Bismuth as a secondary coolant

Post by David » Jun 09, 2009 9:04 pm

Here is the best MOSEL paper from 1964

Ice le meilleur report de MOSEL de 1964
MOSEL1964.pdf
(749.98 KiB) Downloaded 320 times
David L.

Alex P
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Re: Molten Bismuth as a secondary coolant

Post by Alex P » Jun 10, 2009 11:33 am

I have opened a thread about MOSEL some time ago, so I'm very glad to read some paper about it


David,

the MOSEL project seems to me very similar to your epithermal, moderator free design (simply, "a tank of salts" as you said), thus why don't you like it?

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honzik
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Re: Molten Bismuth as a secondary coolant

Post by honzik » Jun 10, 2009 12:36 pm

I went poking around Google Scholar and looked for references to the Kasten Paper. I found this paper by authors whose names I haven't run across yet. I leave here for your perusal:

INCINERATION OF TRANSURANIC WASTE IN A MOLTEN SALT
REACTOR BASED ON THE THORIUM-URANIUM-233 FUEL CYCLE
Reinhard Koch and Andrey Myasnikov

http://www.fzd.de/FWS/publikat/JB02/JB_02_R09.pdf

David
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Re: Molten Bismuth as a secondary coolant

Post by David » Jun 10, 2009 2:00 pm

Alex P wrote:I have opened a thread about MOSEL some time ago, so I'm very glad to read some paper about it


David,

the MOSEL project seems to me very similar to your epithermal, moderator free design (simply, "a tank of salts" as you said), thus why don't you like it?
Not sure if you are talking about the same MOSEL as in the paper above (MOSEL1964). ORNL had the bad habit of using the same name for different designs and MOSEL is mentioned in several ORNL reports but was a very different proposal.

If you really look at the core design they are talking about a Two Fluid system that has the two fluids interlaced within the core and separated by thin metal walls. The system seemed absurd in the complexity of the core with layers of fuel salt/metal/blanket salt repeated over and over and only a couple millimeters thick each. Thus we are talking thousands and thousands of layers of thin metal walls and one little leak could shut your reactor down. I think this is a worse "plumbing problem" than ORNL's two fluid graphite plumbing of the mid 1960s. My proposal has been not to interlace the two salts at all within the core but just have a single pipe surrounded by blanket salt.

David L.

P.S. I just skimmed the MOSEL paper again, the layers are 3 mm of fuel salt then 0.6 mm of metal and then about 3 mm of blanket salt, repeat this almost endlessly! Doesn't sound very plausible to me at least...
Last edited by David on Jun 10, 2009 2:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

David
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Re: Molten Bismuth as a secondary coolant

Post by David » Jun 10, 2009 2:05 pm

honzik wrote:I went poking around Google Scholar and looked for references to the Kasten Paper. I found this paper by authors whose names I haven't run across yet. I leave here for your perusal:

INCINERATION OF TRANSURANIC WASTE IN A MOLTEN SALT
REACTOR BASED ON THE THORIUM-URANIUM-233 FUEL CYCLE
Reinhard Koch and Andrey Myasnikov

http://www.fzd.de/FWS/publikat/JB02/JB_02_R09.pdf

Yes, I think I posted that same paper in the discussion of Kirk's transuranic waste burning proposal. It is a very interesting study using the mode called "thorium support" where you feed it TRUs but the thorium present produces enough U233 to keep the reactivity of the system high and at the same time the thorium has an added bonus of increasing the solubility of the (TRU)F3 you are trying to burn. Without thorium and U233 it is hard for reactors to be critical on only TRUs because of the limited solubility. Lecarpentier of France first suggested this in his work on the AMSTER set of designs.

David L.

Alex P
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Re: Molten Bismuth as a secondary coolant

Post by Alex P » Jun 11, 2009 3:44 am

David wrote:
Alex P wrote:I have opened a thread about MOSEL some time ago, so I'm very glad to read some paper about it


David,

the MOSEL project seems to me very similar to your epithermal, moderator free design (simply, "a tank of salts" as you said), thus why don't you like it?
Not sure if you are talking about the same MOSEL as in the paper above (MOSEL1964). ORNL had the bad habit of using the same name for different designs and MOSEL is mentioned in several ORNL reports but was a very different proposal.
No, actually I wasn't aware of that...these are the first papers about Mosel I' ve ever read, besides some Uri Gat's docs like this http://www.osti.gov/bridge/servlets/pur ... 717860.pdf. I don't really know which Mosel docs from ORNL you refer to and if there are others ORNL papers about the topic (if so, I'd be very happy to read them)

Alex P
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Re: Molten Bismuth as a secondary coolant

Post by Alex P » Jun 12, 2009 3:51 am

David wrote: ...
P.S. I just skimmed the MOSEL paper again, the layers are 3 mm of fuel salt then 0.6 mm of metal and then about 3 mm of blanket salt, repeat this almost endlessly! Doesn't sound very plausible to me at least...
Yes, perhaps, but at a first sight I found very interesting the possibility to use (in a faster/epithermal spectrum) more economic and cleaner salts, typically lithium and beyllium free salts - potentially, no tritium production, no toxicity of Be and costs/availibility concerns of Li

Cyril R
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Re: Molten Bismuth as a secondary coolant

Post by Cyril R » Jun 17, 2011 8:57 am

According to "COMPOSITION AND PROPERTIES OF LIQUID-METAL FUELS" you can make a molten bismuth loop but you have to make it out of niobium. I guess that's fine, since niobium is a ductile yet refractory metal that is also resistant to molten fluorides (similar to nickel in fact). However you could not add much additives - it would have to be nearly pure niobium metal.

http://moltensalt.org/references/static ... chap20.pdf

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